Straight talk about suicide

[PJ Leary]

Hi all,

I have been disturbed recently by several posts concerning suicide and suicidal ideation. The idea seems to be that all people with psoriasis ( especially severe p ), have thoughts about suicide at times.

I have even seen it posted that if one has psoriasis and does not have these thoughts, one is not normal. I find this to be an alarming trend.

I have been a member of this board for a long time, and read many posts. Before NPF Board was around, the only good resource on line was the altskin newsgroups, dealing mostly with psoriasis. While I must truthfully state that people with psoriasis certainly
sometimes also deal with depression, they do not regularly talk about suicide.

Further, I might state that it is not clear in those cases if the psoriasis is the underlying cause of the depression.

If you are a person who reads my posts, please do not pass this off as PJ's always optimistic. I am not, and have had my own round with clinical depression. I will state that while my psoriasis didn't help things that year, the only things that did help were counseling and time. Fortunately, I was able to avoid medication, but if it had lasted much longer I doubt that would have been the case.

Having thoughts about suicide on a regular basis indicates the need for a medical diagnosis by a trained mental health professional.

There is no more shame in mental health issues than there is in psoriasis. Both are medical conditions which, when bothersome or severe, require competent professional treatment.

If you are having thoughts of suicide, please get help. This is not a normal response to having psoriasis.

Regards,

PJ Leary:confused:

[lahdove]

This is a good subject, PJ Leary. I have so many thoughts, I'm not sure where to start. I've lost 3 loved ones to suicide. Sometimes I'm angry that they could do it and I have to stay here. After experiencing what it does to the family and friends first hand, I know I could never do it to the ones I love. But, that doesn't stop me from wishing I'd done it first. OK, OK, don't worry! I am in treatment and on meds. This is the only time in my life, I've had a Dr. (?) that I felt really good about. I've been helped so much. And, you're right. P isn't the only reason I've ever thought of suicide. To be that sick takes things piling up on you till you are overwhelmed. And it is a myth that people who talk about it don't do it. So Please, anyone reading this who has heard of anyone talking about doing suicide, take them serious and try any encouragement you can. Talk to them, try to make them talk. But, remember: It's not your fault if you can't stop them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I should come back later. Enough for me now.
lahdove

[PJ Leary]

Dear Dove,

I actually find your post rather healthy. To have the angry thoughts that you do about your loved ones who were so confused and ill that they took their own lives is a natural response. From reading your post, I also see that it is not your only response.

I am very sorry that you have lost three dear to you in such a tragic manner. You are so right about the losses. There is the tragic loss of the life taken abruptly, and the terrible price paid by those who survive. You must be a very strong person to have gotten through all of that and still be doing ok.

I am encouraged that you are getting treatment. I'm glad you feel good about your Dr. I have needed to use a counselor many times in my life for different reasons. My psoriasis was only one reason, for a period of time. I was trying, in my late 20's, to learn to join my view of myself as a seperate type of being with my view of others as being "different". I had a very 'we' & "they" perspective that was not helping. I got past it.

Thanks for your response, and I am so pleased to know that you are doing ok in the mental health department.

Regards,

PJ Leary

[rocmama]

I have a feeling that anyone with P an/or PA who is takling suicide has much deeper problems than you can see on the surface. In some cases the P may just be the "proverbial straw" (if you will) that broke the camel's back.

Furthermore, as I believe I understood PJ to say, Did the P cause the depression? or Did the depression aggravate the P?

It's kinda like the chicken and the egg thing. Who Knows?


Lahdove,

I agree with you. It should always be taken seriously.

[PJ Leary]

Hi rocmama,

Got my eyes on that Sportster, is it available yet?

Seriously, that was absolutely an important point. The underlying cause of depression in psoriasis patients has not been found in studies to be the actual disease psoriasis in the majority of patients studied. You'll need to allow me a day to post the pertinent links, unless MikeK steps up first??

The important thing is that professional medical diagnosis is crucial to the treatment of any depression or serious suicidal ideation.

Regards,

PJ Leary

[suffering]

I thought of suicide when i found out but not just cos of P.............I saw my dreams fading away from me..............long story

but it was more of learning to live with P than to die for it

I doubt that there are any suicuides caused by it.......maybe a trigger...........

Many people with P tend to be depressive anyway, so their is more of an underlying problem.

Scratching the surface so to speak...........:p

[Smiling_Eyes]

Hi PJ,

Food for thought there. I agree that P by and in itself is something that ALL of us can handle. It isn't THAT. It's the way that P interferes with the course of our daily life that is so frustrating for so many. I in fact remember times when I've tried to avoid social contact as far as possible coz of my P. It wasn't that the P incapacitated me physically. It was rather the reaction to it by others that incapacitated me the most. Once bitten, twice shy. Once you've had a harsh experience it's difficult to forget.....and be ready to face a possible similar reaction. The FEAR of rejection/isolation/humiliation/disgust of people around us based on our appearance is often a precursor to these thoughts.

P is as much of a mental disease as a physical one. Just treating the bodily scars isn't enough. May be it's high time doctors understood that patients with P need emotional counseling as well in dealing with P as it affects our day-to-day life.

[jperng]

Hi PJ...

Do not worry about me. For I am feeling better as each days go by. I have found new goals in life and will live long enough to accomplish them all. There are still time I feel depressed, but nothing as bad as it was. I find this board to be a great outlet for me. Thanks everyone for taking their time to listen to me and respond to my post, eventhou most of them time they don't even make sense. :D

[suffering]

jperng - Your avatar is as cute as a button!!!!

Where is the images from? they are adorable!

[jperng]

Hehe.. PJ such off topic question..
but here it is. it's a Japanese website I think there is an option for you to view in English but regardless the graphic appears the same.

http://ushikai.wakusei.ne.jp/graphic/g_about.htm

[Zanshin]

I used to think about such extreme thing's when I first got my P. I felt that way becuase I didnt think that any of the thing's I ever wanted in life would be possible. I didnt think there were people in this world who would except me for who I was and not what I am. Through the year's that thought has been proven wrong on my part. When I exposed my condition to all of my friend's they thought nothing of it (that made me feel good) and when I met my girl friend (about 2 yr's ago) she didnt really think anything of it either. Having the love and support of family and friend's can really help a person with P and or depression to except themselve's for who they are.

[Resist]

What I have to say about suicide won't be sugar coated and will be harse, some may be offended so I apologize in advance.

There are only two reasons where I can accept suicide as an option for anyone. The first being a terminal illness that will result in a long painful death. The second being where someone knowingly gives their life to save another.

I can believe that most suicides are the result of a mental illness. But of the others, I cannot give sympathy for doing such an act because of a bad day or because their life sucks.

Many people suffer with terminal illnesses and yet cling to life. How dare someone with Psoriasis even think about suicide! Just take a walk in a hospital, visit the children's ward and you will see real pain. Or think about this countries POW's, what they had to endure. Yet most did NOT give up, even when there was no sight of hope. Can I be anymore blunt people? You NEVER ever give up....NEVER!

There is pain in life. If we are lucky, we get 80 years. Just a blink on the geological calender.

If you can't go on for yourself, then go on for others. Think of all the good one person can do for other people or animals. Fight for those that can't fight for themselves!

There I'm done. As I said, I am sorry if I insulted anyone.

[PJ Leary]

Hi Resist,

I agree mostly, but the post was about folks who have posted recently voicing these thoughts.

All vicitms of suicide are mentally ill at the time of the act. The only way to avoid succumbing to the ultimate and final act of suicide is for someone to see that the illness exists and get help. That someone may be the individual themselves, or a family member or close friend may stage an intervention.

You are right, and are healthy. As am I, and happy for us both. It was the others I was concerned about.

Thanks for posting. I certainly don't think anything you said was insulting.

Regards,

PJ Leary

[lapradef]

Resist --

I can assure you that you didn't offend me. But I'm a member of the Hemlock Society, and contribute to their Foundation. While I know that 99% of suicides are irrational and stupid (particularly with younger people), and many are the result of treatable and maybe curable clinical depression, I find it both obscene and absurd that we continue to deny ourselves the same humane and dignified deaths that responsible people give their beloved pets. Many "human" attempts at suicide are botched, often leaving the victim worse off than he was before. That's why I'm a supporter of doctor-assisted suicide in appropriate cases. From the Netherlands, it's called the "Dutch Cocktail."

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not talking about P. , nor did psoriasis have anything to do with my joining the society. I guess P could get to the point that suicide would be an option, but I've never been anywhere near that. I was thinking more about the last agonizing days of some cancer victims I've known.

I too hope I haven't offended anyone, but I'm a little older than some of you, and after you see loved ones -- held prisoner by the medical and legal professions -- go through useless suffering that you'd never in a million years let your favorite old hound-dog go through, you have to know there's something wrong with the system. I'd like to decide when it's "over," and, if God doesn't like that, well, he has my e-mail address, doesn't He?

The Dog

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[PJ Leary]

Hi Gray,

Very well said. I too have been around long enough to see loved ones just barely existing, often in a great deal of untreatable pain, before passing on. I have wished for years that I could have helped my own mother take her life quietly as she wanted rather than wiat the final few days for Nature to take it's ultimate course.

However, as much as I would like to have helped her, here in the USA, people go to jail for doing that. I had a family to think about, and my Mom was going to die one way or the other. I'd like to be the hero and report that I helped her anyway, but I was not her hero. I was for my children, though.

This is a bit off from the original subject, but interesting none the less.

Regards,

PJ Leary

[lahdove]

Not insulted here. Mostly I have to agree with you, Resist. But I need to add another reason. Cronic, unbearable, untreatable pain with no hope of release through natural death. Don't tell me there is always relief available. That just isn't true in this day and age. Mom had Multiple Sclerosis. She lived with it for over 40 years. Did real well till the last two or so. There was nothing else they could do for her. Her pain was both physical and mental, with no hope. But, she could have lived that way for a long time yet. Heart & Lungs and vital organs were strong. She often said to me, "We treat our pets better then we treat our People." She actually asked me to help her end it. That tore me up because I just couldn't. Then she changed her mind, because she was afraid I'd get caught and suffer for it. (Prison?) I don't know which is worse, cause now I live with the knowledge that she did it (suicide) alone, and died alone. I should have been with her......holding her hand till the end. I can forgive her easier than I can forgive myself. OK, I admit it was wrong. A sin. But surely a loving God must understand. I truly believe she is waiting in Heaven for me. I have to believe that. So, don't anyone tell me different!!! Suicide is Hell to anyone left here. That is what we have to remember. Those left behind will never recover from this action. If we are able to remember that, we are not "sick" enough to do it. Those that commit suicide are too sick to understand that. And, surely God knows that better than I do. There is still more I can say. Mom was only one of three I've lost. But, it's too emotional again now.
Thank you all so much if you've stuck with me through this post. It seems to have helped a bit to express all of this.
lahdove

[lapradef]

"All vicitms of suicide are mentally ill at the time of the act."

Come on -- you know that's not true. Some make a very rational choice, and they're not all "victims." If you're trying to talk young people out of stupid suicides for stupid reasons, then I applaud you. But if you're saying that all terminally ill persons who opt for suicide (usually, sadly, due to our archaic laws, are only allowed to pray for death), are crazy, then I respectfully but vehemently disagree. Sometimes, that's the only rational choice.

I'm sure you're familiar with the absurd show that NC puts on with its "legal injections." Four tubes -- soporifics, muscle relaxants and all the rest of the crap. My vet does it with one little shot. It takes less than thirty seconds, and I've never seen one of our beloved dogs or cats even wince or whimper when the injection came. I'm hoping to bribe my vet when my time comes.

I hope you can understand my point.

Grey

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[suffering]

I am a fatalist. What is meant to happen will happen

Therefore a person commiting suicide has NO OPTION as someone getting hit by a bus

It was there time to go and from an old arab translation 'No one can live past their age'

well thats my opinion...............................

[rocmama]

I agree with you 100% when you say that in some cases assisted suicide should be acceptable. I also believe that it is done (in hospitals) more often than you know.

My mother died of lung Cancer. We were all at the hospital with her when she started choking. She was literally drowning on the fluids in her lungs. I yelled at the nurse to "please do something for her" because I couldn't stand watching her. She said that she had just talked to the doctor about what to give her and we needed to leave the room for a moment so she could give it. ??? We went out into the hall to wait and she came back out and said that if we wanted to say good-bye, we needed to get back in the room "now". We went back in and she died. I didn't ask what she gave her (I didn't care), I'm just glad that she didn't suffer anymore.

Given similar circumstances, I only hope someone cares enough to do the same for me.

[PJ Leary]

Lapradef,

I apologize for that statement, it was very imprecise. You are most certainly correct about those with terminal and horrible diseases. That was not what this post was about. However, those individuals are making a medical choice.

Please do see my own post about my Mom. I too, would have preferred to help, but was unable due to the legal/criminal aspects.

Thanks for pointing out my gross misstatement, I would not have wanted it to stand there.

Dove,

I am still really sorry for the losses you have endured. I am sorry you had to watch your Mom suffer with MS. I am even sorrier still that our society is so backwards concering euthenasia ( spelling??? ).

We are all grateful that you have shared your thoughts and experiences and feelings with us in a matter that is so close to your heart.

Suffering,

I suppose we are all students of Philosopy when you get right down to it. I respect your belief that all is pre-destined, many great thinkers have argued the point convincingly.

However, even if that may end up to be the case, I prefer to believe that I have the ability to influence the course of my own life. This is actually a gambler's view: If it is all pre-destined, nothing has changed. However, on the off chance I can influence the course of my destiny, I would rather act now than regret inaction later.

This has been very interesting. Thank you all .

Regards,

PJ Leary

[lahdove]

Thanks PJ

I'm grateful for your words. Seems we have more than P in common. I also am sorry about your experience with your Mothers death. I doubt that there are very many "older folks" who haven't experienced some similar kind of death of a loved one. Dad wasn't a suicide, his death was more like your Mothers. He had emphysema. They tell us what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And, lifes lessons are hard. Old sayings stick around because they are TRUE.

Thanks again to ALL for being here.

lapradef,

Just want to tell you I agree with everything you've said. Only those who have experienced a situation can truly understand. It is obvious you have suffered too. I'm sorry for your pain too.

Resist

I can only say I hope you never come face to face with a situation that makes you change your mind. You may be basically correct, but there are always exceptions. It is very painful to learn this lesson, so take our word for it. We don't want you to find out the hard way.

Rocmama

You're in my prayers too. I'm sorry about your experience.

Suffering

Please forgive this old gal. I have wanted to say something to you for a long time. It's none of my business (except that we all want to watch out for each other) but, I wish you would change your I.D. Calling yourself "Suffering" can only remind you of problems. You can't be upbeat unless you "think" upbeat. Just something for you to think about. Love Ya.

lahdove

[suffering]

Shall change it soon, something more upbeat! and funky!

[Resist]

lahdove,

You act as if I have never been exposed to death. Well I have, many times. Family members and friends. It is for that reason, I said what I said.

[lahdove]

resist

I am so sorry I seem to have offended you. It wasn't that I was lecturing or accusing you of not understanding death. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in my meaning. My own experience makes me believe that no one can watch a loved one suffer without realizing there are worse things then death. I don't expect everyone to agree, but I won't be changing my mind any time soon. Besides the P, I've been in pain all my life. Death holds no fear for me. Both my parents died suffering, and they were both ready to die. My brother was a suicide just after he turned 30. His death hit us all hard. Shouldn't have happened. So I know that each death has a different meaning. They all hurt those left behind. At 19, I lost a best friend in a car accident. I'm sure you can match me in these bad experiences, and I never meant to imply anything else. I only find I can't agree with you when you say "Never" give up. I repeat, there are worse things than death. But I agree with you completely when you say "if not for yourself, think of others" That is the only reason I'm still here and living with this pain.
lahdove

[Hvnlysweet]

My thoughts on suicide.. "Dont do it" i know everyone here has had those thoughts, of suicide.. Even i felt that way in the past.. Ive told myself numerous of times that i rather die then to live this way forever.. But then i told myself, with my luck as soon as im gone there will be a cure.. :rolleyes: but anyway,life does get better.. and im so glad i stayed here to enjoy the fun times, and my new friends.. and always remember psoriasis are not scars... theres places on me that have cleared and left no sign that P was once there.. when you find the medicine that works for you, you to will have the same results, it just takes alot of time to figure out what works well for you.. as we all know everyones different, what works for me might not work for you.. right now the only method that works for me is tanning and using Dovonex ointment and my favorite Cocoa butter cream with lots of vitamin E.. this seems to keep me clear for a long time.. when using steriod creams, its more like a temporary fix for me ive noticed, im lucky to go two weeks clear.. so i leave now with a note.. Dont give up on life, you never know what the future holds for you.. "a cure" "children" " or as simple as finding a method that works for you" and it could be something simple like changing your diet or tanning, you just never know in less you try all of your options that are out there...
also when trying something new stick with it, because everything takes time, dont wait two weeks and say "well i see no change in my skin so i will just give up" it could take months to get what your working so hard for.. some people say tanning beds dont work for me.. that could be true for some, but how long did you go tanning? before you decided hey this dont work... Motivation is the key to success... and trust me i looked like hell at one time, now my skin looks great, Dont think death is a way out, if i can do it anyone can... ' and everyone exercise go for a run" i can care less if you weigh 120 pounds that does not mean your healthy on the inside, take care of yourself, love yourself, and you will see overall improvement in your skin and mental stability... Suicide thoughts are caused from depression, people that have these thoughts are not crazy, they our unhappy with themselves, but that can all be changed... T.C. Hvnly...

[PJ Leary]

Ok, here goes:

Resist,

I apologize for not responding directly to you sooner in this thread. When I first read your post, I thought you were absolutely right in your assertions, I still think that. To wit my controversial statement that all suicide is the result of mental illness. Your exceptions were correct, illness and bravery do not apply to my statement.

Lest we diverge even further from the original topic, sweet has brought this discussion back around to the original thoughts. I am deeply disturbed to hear that folks feel suicidal thoughts about having psoriasis. That is not to implicate that those feelings are wrong , any first year psych student will tell us that no feelings are "wrong". I was merely attempting to seperate the conditions, suicidal ideation/clinical depression, and psoriasis.

Everyone who gets p gets bummed out, angry, mildly depressed. I was trying to sort out what is a normal psychological response, and what might need further investigation. What I do know is that I do not know enough to have a competent opinion on this subject. I would venture a guess that most of us are not qualified to do so. That's why there is a need to get a diagnosis.

I am sure, knowing Dove, that she meant no offense. This is a tetchy and painful subject, and one she's had more than her fair share of experience with. I think Dove was just trying to express some very personal beliefs, in the safety of this wonderful board. I did not think she was implying that you are inexperienced in the subject of loss, death, pain, etc.

Personally, I think everyone with p or pa should see a counselor at some point. This is as much a disease of psychology as it is a physical disease.

Dove, Dear, I understand your comments, and where you are coming from. I was so pleased to see your sincere apology to resist. You have a good heart. We all mispeak, or mistype, or are misunderstood here at times. One of the really great things about this forum is that we can be ourselves in our worst moments, be understood, and forgiven. I am a great one for saying stuff that sounds not like what I meant. lol...

I am honored that you have chosen to share with all of us such intimate and emotionally charged information. We are all enriched by your courage.

Dove, dear, I think all of us psors, you and me included, have a great deal in common in character and emotional integrity. Our experiences with this have caused us all to grow up, if we want to or not.

Sweet,

The whole idea behind this thread is that

everyone who has psroiasis does not have suicidal thoughts. I am not trying to shout at you, but to make an important point. While it is certainly possible that your suicidal thougths were not a serious risk to your well being and mental health, it is imperative to seperate the psychological/psychiatric issues from the physical illness.

Now, I have gone on too long, I am sorry. But, I think that these things needed to be said here. I have been so concerned about some of our members in this regard.

Please all know that I wish everyone only the best of health and the happiness life can offer.

Regards,

PJ Leary

[lapradef]

You got a lot of things right, but first among them is the observation that there are many things worse than death. To me, it's more of a control issue: I hope never to become a prisoner of the medical profession -- or the legal one either for that matter -- but there are tens of thousands now who are exactly that.

Regards --

Greydog

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[lapradef]

Please understand that I'm not talking about P or PA, not the kind 99.99% of us have anyway.

Got to go now, to watch the second DVD of "The Singing Detective." (I'm watching the BBC series, not the movie.) So far, it's great, although very disturbing.

Again, regards to all --

Doggy

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[Resist]

I'm sorry but I'll never agree that there are more things worse than death. Death is the ultimate end. My god people look around you! Look at the kids born with massive birth defects, yet they go on. Look at accident victims (9-11 for instance), with major disfigurements, they go on. I'm sorry but you NEVER give up.

[Fawn]

I am struggling with the ethical dilemma of euthanasia. I believe that a person has the right to die with dignity, but am afraid that there might be those out there who would try to "mercy-kill" their ill relatives to get $ and property. The 20th century experience with euthanasia is still too real, particularly the "Final Solution" of the Nazi regime in Europe. Society may end up finding it difficult to discern murder from actual euthanasia, particularly if the mercy killing is used by someone who cannot give informed consent due to their state of health.

I empathize with those who have lost loved ones to suicide. It is a devastating loss that fills one with guilt, anger, sorrow, and despair. It is particularly bad when the person who commits the act is a child or adolescent.

[lahdove]

I can't thank you all enough. For your personal notes to me. For the support I've gotten here. This thread has helped me more then all the counseling I've been receiving. :) I feel you all are trying to understand how I feel and that is more then I feel from someone I'm paying to listen. I have a wonderful counselor, but this is different. It is almost impossible to put all the thoughts in words, and by leaving some out, we tend to put our own meanings into what we read. But, the caring comes through loud and clear. God Bless You All.
lahdove

[misales]

Finally figured out the advanced search thing, this was the only thread with Suicide in the title. Anyway, a recent news report regarding a missing District Attorney in Pennsylvania struck me a little. Working in Law Enforcement and knowing a number of our local prosecuters myself, it just seemed odd. Although no one is sure that suicide is the issue here, it certainly is a potential reason for him being missing.

Well, a few years back when I was at my worst with psoriasis, I certainly considered it at times, I guess it just never got that bad. The scary part about it is that I know how to do it. I think the worst part of the psoriasis was dealing with my family and work and then still being miserable all the time with the severe psoriasis. You know for me, it would have been an easy way out, not the right way, but definately an easy way. For certain a Cure.

Now cleared, I can also certainly say that my mental condition and attitude has improved significantly from when I was at my servere state.

I don't think it's all about being "crazy" either. I think you can get to a point when you're just fed up with psoriasis. Treatments aren't working, etc.. this is not unusual.

I just wanted to refresh this topic as it would not be good to have someone get to that point in life, just totally fed up, and end it due to psoriasis. There are options out there, you just need to seek them out.

I also say this as I went to a number of doctors and derms and my "attitude" when severe was not addressed until I went to the U of M. Either some of the docs/derms missed it or they didn't have the time to address it or maybee they just didn't think it was important.

PS, It's a good subject for some of the severe or those who have addressed it themselves. Please don't move it to conversations.

[jgirl]

really I am! :p but I was eating dinner, and I always read when I eat...

I know excuses; excuses. But we're really hitting home now. Really. Because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that part of my purpose for being alive is to get through to people about to kill themselves. Really. Not necessarily right now, but I am writing a movie with an anti-suicide theme (in addition to one about a teenager with p and a comedy about aliens) but the anti-suicide one, that is my life's work. My friends know, if I die, prematurely, they are to PRODUCE THIS MOVIE! It must, and it will; be made; and seen...

I can't give out details yet. It's not even close to being finished or copyrighted, but all I want to say on this topic is this:

YOU never know what's gonna happen! Upset about p? tomorrow they might find the cure; or at least you yours...Upset about relationships? Tomorrow you may meet the love of your life...Money? perhaps you'll meet a mentor tomorrow who'll turn things around for you financially, or you'll get a call on a great job, or WHO KNOWS.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TOMORROW.

My point is; things aren't stagnant. Life is SUPPOSED to be hard, and it's FULL of tests. You DON"T KNOW WHAT GOD AND THE UNIVERSE ULTIMATELY HAVE IN STORE FOR YOU, and even then things change daily. Every hardship is an opportunity to learn, and grow, and show what you're made of. Life is not about being part of some perfect picture with a perfect figure and a nice home and car and 2.5 kids. Nothing wrong if that's what you have, my point is just that it's the spiritual growth that leads in and out of these things that's most important. Nobody's life is perfect and happy all the time, not celebrities, not presidents, not rich people, not the average small town person. IT IS ALL RELATIVE. At times, I have found just as much happiness in appreciating the curves of a rose in bloom as I have getting a part or closing a deal. There is beauty all around us...we just need to awaken to it, and focus on it.

I think it's also EXTREMELY important to find a safe place to express yourself; if you have angst; whether you sing, paint, act, work out, kickbox, meditate, beat a pillow, lock youreself in a car and scream, beat a pillow; etc. or of course go to therapy(I use to teach creative therapy)...They say depression is just suppressed rage or sadness and I firmly believe this. Emotions MUST be expressed or; you have to reframe how you look at things so that you feel differently about them.

There is no shame in therpay. NONE. The people I worry about, are not the people who have been through therapy...it is the people who haven't!
We all have worth, and a purpose for being here. Be patient and let it be shown to you. Lean on those who have gone through what you have. Find the smallest positive thing in your world, hold on to , meditate on it, PRACTICE GRATITUDE, and your happiness will grow. We get more of what we focus on.

[docmks]

I strongly recommend that folks read the following book: Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide by Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison. Dr. Jamison is on the faculty of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and she also has bipolar disorder. Many years ago she attempted suicide. I have met her personally and I've heard her speak. She is an extraordinary person and a top-rate scholar. The book is available through amazon.com in paperback. It is very readable and an excellent source of information about suicide.

MK

PJLeary started an useful thread......
Menthal health & psoriasis......
or
psoriasis & Menthal healht

mumble...mumble.....

[misales]

But they always ask why and wonder what they could have done before this happens. If you don't believe this happens, it does. And in my opinion severe psoriasis can get you to this point.

Brad

thanks for the precious opinion...
so the problem is...
Psoriasis and mental health and thanks to god not viceversa.
the fact that the people do not want to talk about this argument let me know that are feared about,but still lucid....
so the psicologial impact of psoriasis still let people
able to intend and to want....

so dear people with psoriasis
do not let the night to win !
the night (will all his meanings......)

[Tyberious13]

"Suicide is the most sincerest form of self-criticism."

Not sure who said that. **shrugs**

-R-

[misales]

OK, I'll bump it, I have no fear! You know there is a significant stigma about this medical condition....It's called Post Mortem.

I see it all the time and it happens. Might as well discuss it before it's to late!

[meghan_72]

jgirl, I really agree with you! Life is constantly changing.

To those who are having some tough times now, there will be good times ahead. And your time here on earth is your chance to learn about the universe- to grow, explore, and be! You are strong! Our physical bodies are not all there are to us. Our thoughts, attitudes, and actions make up a huge component to how people perceive us.

It's really important to identify the specific sad and angry thoughts you are having. Do NOT judge your thoughts and feelings.One of the best books I've read on dealing with depression (even when it's severe) is "Feeling Good" by David Burns, MD. It is basically cognitive behavioral therapy and it has an excellent success rate in helping people overcome their negative thoughts.

Also like jgirl said, get counseling or find a trusted person who will listen closely to you. Having a more objective view point really helps. And it is very important that it be someone who is really listening to you. I found that not only expressing my feelings helped, but expressing them to a trusted friend or counselor who was listening helped greatly.

I've had depression since I was a little kid. Suicidal thoughts were always going on in my head. But fortunately I never tried it. A close family member tried it and, thank God, she didn't succeed! It was devasting enough just picking up from that point.

When my PsA began in earnest in my mid-20s, I was SO depressed. My body was deteriorating fast and my expectations of the future were growing dim. That was the closest I came to acting on my thoughts. I called a helpline that night in the middle of the night. I've had a long road back and am better than ever- mentally anyway.

There are a lot of ways and means to find help. Al-Anon is a really good place to go, or it was for me. I usually didn't speak but it was helpful to hear how other people were coping with life's problems. And it was nearly free- $1-2 donations each meeng.

[meghan_72]

Here are 2 things I've taken away from the 12-step programs:

a) One day at a time, one minute at a time.
b) The Serenity Prayer:
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

[jejacobs]

Hi everyone. I think this is a really important topic, and there are obviously a number of very different issues stemming from it that everybody has brought up.

I think it would be fantastic for the NPF (if they're not already working on it) to do some research on depression, thoughts of suicide, and actual suicide among individuals with psoriasis.

We live in a world where merely mentioning the word "suicide" sends everyone else into such a frenzy of medicalizing, that there is a failure to see the steps that lead to a particular mode of thinking. I, for one, believe it is completely feasible that cycles of depression and feelings of hopelessness brought about through living with P (or any long-term medical problem) can feed into thoughts of suicide (and perhaps the action itself).

I'm not saying any particular behavior is normative. But if such thought processes occur in any significant measure among people with P, then we need to be able to arm ourselves with reasonable 'positive' counter-discourses at the earliest stages of depression. By these discourses, I mean something other than and BEYOND "go talk to a psychologist/psychiatrist."

I think what meghan_72 said about identifying specific thoughts that bring you down is also really important.

[jperng]

if you are thinking about suicide. Please talk about it. get it out in the open and seek help. I did and I am so much happier now. Life is not perfect but so far it's doing pretty good and I am enjoying every minute of it.

[PJ Leary]

PJ, debate brings change and it is perfectly appropriate here. I'm just sick of the people with this disease that I see that appear depressed or report depression.

The original subject of this thread is about one person relating their experience of the emotional and psychological impact of psoriasis on thier life. The debate is certainly a worthy topic, just not on this thread. I did post a link above to the conversation on that topic.


This is similar in mental health. Mental health is like visible psoriatic skin. No one wants to show it, talk about it, or be known to have it.

I agree with this statement. The stigma attached to mental illnesses is very similar to that attached to psoriasis.

I have read your posts in the past that you feel your mental health issues did nothing for your skin.

I would love to see that quote, I do not believe that is what I said or even ever implied. Mental health issues that I have dealt with while being psoriatic helped me very much. Unfortunately, treating my psyche alone did not cure my psoriasis.

It is well known on these boards that we all react differently to different treatments etc. I personally think that my mental health treatment while severe was extremely instrumental in my clearing.

That is very nice for you.

Now, during my watch of these boards there have been a handful of people who bring up the word suicide, another again tonight. I'd put money on a proposition that there is a legion out there who have hidden their mental health issues that are DIRECTLY related to this disease as well as one might hide a case of groin inverse.

Remember, not all of us have the luxury of having a progressive dermatologist at a major univeristy hospital.

I have not always had access to the best medical care, and I have had severe psoriasis and pa for 29 years. Your statement is one very important reason that I am as active in the NPF as I am, both as an advocate for individual patients as well as on a larger scale. I want to see every patient have access to the treatments and medications they need to have an active and healthy life.


Remember, the population of this message board is just a grain of sand compared to the population with psoriasis.[/QUOTE]

You are so right about that.

Regards,

[misales]

This is the best that I could come up with and it was not a quote but just a generalization that I had brought forth which in part brought my comment. Regardless of it's accuracy I think the spririt of the issue is the "real" nature of treating psoriasis with psychology and I think that is where we disagree. I think I could name a few others out there that would also challenge any psoriasis treatment program through the use of anti depressant pharmaceuticals and or psychology and or stress relief or similar.

OK, heres a portion of your post that I was refering to.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++

"I enjoyed doing yoga for many years, but it never helped my psoriasis. I've been meditating since I was 12, and while there are nice benefits from that, it never helped my psoriasis. I took garlic and did yoga to try to aviod medication for high blood pressure, it didn't work either. Relaxing on a tropical beach always helps my psoriasis, but relaxing at a ski resort does not. I think it is the beach that helps as much or more than the vacation!

I do know that a different points in my life I too have had great benefit from seeking counseling to help me understand the effects of living with this disease. I recommend it highly."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

Now, understanding the effects of psoriasis is one thing that psychology can do for psoriasis. I, however, would like to go much deeper into it than that. I am looking for actual positive change in PASI as a direct result of therapy/psych meds or stress relief activity.

When I went for therapy I made it a point to seek behaviour modification. Learning about stuff is one thing but modifying behavior is another.

As far as it being good for me it was. I certainly hope that more, especially those with insurance for it actually attempt to realize similar benefit. Problem is that in my experience derms and or docs don't point you in that direction.

I think it needs to be explored and referred more. I don't think there is much to lose here. If you don't like therapy or a basic antidepressant or either, quit. Odds are you have little or no side effects or physical damage on account of the attempt. Problem is to get people to make that step and comply.

Last thing PJ. Moving that discussion over to here has one flaw. No one wants to discuss this issue. I've revisited it in the past and it's pretty much an avoided general topic. Maybe that will change but I dare to say it probably won't this time either.

Actually I could give you a lot of first hand experience with suicide. I've probably witnessed the remnants of about 200 of these incidents figuring I get about 1 a month on average. A lot of different reasons behind them but the result is always the same, their dead.

[misales]

I would love to see that quote, I do not believe that is what I said or even ever implied. Mental health issues that I have dealt with while being psoriatic helped me very much. Unfortunately, treating my psyche alone did not cure my psoriasis.


There is no cure, you can only be treated and helped.

The cure word on this board is like dynamite, regardless of your intent, and I avoid it like the plague.

If anyone has me putting out psychology as a cure for this disease let me know. My actual intentions are to get a few of you folks with the insurance and resources to seek it out from your current health providers. It's as individual as the disease it but it's another option that isn't real risky, provided for the most part by licensed professionals, and often is covered by your standard USA insurance plans. Thanks.

[PJ Leary]

Hi Brad,

A little challenge is good for the mental constitution, don't you think?

As I have stated previously, I believe that counseling has many benfits for the psoriatic patient, especially those who may be severely afflicted. We have no disagreement in that regard.

I agree with you that perhaps moving this conversation to this thread is perhaps not the best way to promote the subject since the s word is in the title of the thread. But, that was the purpose when I originally started this thread, to attempt to remove the shame factor and open this topic up for serious discussion as a medical topic pertinent to many psoriatic patients.

As for that cure, like most folks, I am still waiting. Further, I am not afraid to say so. In fact, the Foundation uses that word in its' Mission Statement.

Regards,

[partial]

I don't check this area of the forums too often and am probably about a year late in posting, but this is an important issue that I have strong opinions about, so here goes (I apologize in advance for a long winded reply).

I have dealt with many suicides in my professional career and can say that, in my opinion, it is the most cowardly act that a human being can perform (not accounting for the very rare case that a person has a terminal illness that has completely ruined their quality of life and has discussed it with their family and done it with their knowledge and consent-about one in a million in my estimation).

My experience with suicides comes from working in a large metropolitan law enforcement setting for 16 years and having the misfortune of dealing with a disproportianate number of suicide and death investigations.

My experience was that the vast majority of suicide's and suicide attempts were done by people who had problems asking for help, the suicide attempt was a last ditch effort to be forced to get help. I also found that the motivation behind suicide, or the attempt, was quite often revenge due to a failed relationship, be it romantic or family and was an expression of anger motivated by a way to "get back" at the person(s) who had caused them pain.

I say that it was cowardly based several issues. Primarly the statement comes from dealing with the families after such an event. The devastation that mothers, fathers, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters, girlfriends, boyfriends, etc dealt with after a suicide forms the basis for my opinion. The guilt that those who "survived" felt, no matter how they tried to help, was unbelievable and for someone to intentionally inflict that kind of emotional pain was cowardly.

I also found that most suicidal people had a problem carrying out the act themselves and in many ways expressed a lot of doubt that what they were doing was right. For example, "suicide by cop" is a popular way or going out. Don't have the fortutide to go through with it youself, point a gun at a police officer and let them do it for you (and deal with the emotional upheaval for years to come). Also, the pathetic "attempts" at suicide by ingesting huge quantities of over the counter medications, a cry for help that left them with massive medical issues (blown out internal organs from massive ammounts of pain medication, long term health problems from overdosing on asparin, etc). If you need help, ask for it, dont ruin you health by ingesting a couple bottles of Tylenol and ruin what health you have to try and make someone get you the help.

There is a house that is about a mile or two away from mine that I avoid. I watched a guy blow his head off with a 12 guage shotgun because he couldnt get a building permit to build his dream retirement cottage on the river. I assume that there were other underlying issues, but this is what he said to his family pushed him over the edge.

I watch him blow his brains all over the ceiling of his bedroom every time I drive by this place. It was in 1995 and still bothers me, as do other suicides. I had no emotional attatchment to this guy, so if it still bugs me, what does his family (wife, son, daughter who were standing in the front yard) feel? To me, this guy is scum of the earth for putting his family, especially his kids, through this.

How about the grandfather, who blows his head off with a shotgun while grandma and granddaughter are halloween shopping, knowing full well that they will be the ones to find is headless corpse when they come home? Any impact on the six year old who initially thinks that grandpa has a wild halloween disguise? I think so.

The ex boyfirend/girlfriend/husband/wife who does it to get back at the one who spurned them. Selfishness at its high point. Get help dealing with it and move on, you don't just get back at them, you destroy the lives of your parents, friends, and anyone else who cares about you (and, yes there are people who do).

Medical conditions-I went to a suicidal young man in his twenties who had severe cluster headaches to the point that he would beat his head against the floor. He decided that it was time to die. As I got ready to enter the house to deal with him, his mother broke through police lines and latched on to me sceaming, crying, and begging me not to kill him-saying that he just needed help. Did I put my own safety and risk and do everything I (and the guys with me) could do to make sure that he made it out alive, yea we did. What if we died trying to help your family? You going to apologize to our wives and kids?

I could go on and on with examples about how selfish an act suicide is.

Sure there are the rare occasions where assisted suicide might be deemed approptiate, but having psoriasis isnt one of them.

Yea, psoriasis sucks and can have a huge impact on your quality of life, but its not worth dying over. Can you imagine the guilt left to those who survive, like mom and dad? The feeling that they caused this because they passed on a gene that they didnt know about, didnt do enough to help, the guilt would be endless.

If you are suicidal or having suicidal thouhts, call someone who can help. There are organizations that can help getting treatment and get you through the worst of times. You may feel that you are at the end of you rope, ask for help, dont spread the pain.

[peggyb]

Two days ago, when I was supposed to be getting ready to go out with my closest friends, I came down with a pretty severe headache. That lasted all night and into the next day. For some unknown reason (and this is definitely not the first time it has ever happened) I began to think maybe I was better off dead. (I've been treated for depression for years, too, thought I'd better throw that in.) No major traumas in my life, my husband and I get along great, yaddayaddayadda. Suddenly everything that ever really hurt me in my life flashed through my brain over and over and I couldn't stop it. The pain was overwhelming, both physical and mental. The next morning I burned breakfast, the dog piddled on the floor, I tripped over a toy...and I lost it. Completely lost it. I grabbed my keys and took off, tires squealing. I took a long drive in the country, and every turn I came upon, I screamed at myself to NOT take it. I tried three times to drive into a tree.....anyway, obviously I worked it out. I didn't want to kill myself because someone had spurned me, or because of money troubles, or to get back at someone. I missed my dad, I was completely sick of being sick, and there was a a voice inside my head (MY voice) telling me that it was my day to die.

If I would have done it, would that have made me a coward, partial? I know I have an illness, and the vast majority of the time, the urge is not as severe as it was yesterday. I can tell myself it's the illness talking, not me. I've got tons of stuff to live for--the #1 thing is a little boy who is snoozing in a chair just a few feet away from me right now. I always talk myself out of it, or call friends and spend time with them, or spend one on one time with my little one (that's the best cure of all).

I don't even know why I wrote this.
I'm just a name on a screen to you people, nothing more.
I'm not one of the preferred posters here--
Please don't think badly of people who suffer from depression. They're just really, really sick.

[ouchyk]

I'm glad you didn't go thru with it Peggyb.

Depression, like any other illness, just like p/pa it needs to be followed and treated. And often times depression goes hand in hand with chronic illness.

Karen

[docmks]

Two days ago, when I was supposed to be getting ready to go out with my closest friends, I came down with a pretty severe headache. That lasted all night and into the next day. For some unknown reason (and this is definitely not the first time it has ever happened) I began to think maybe I was better off dead. (I've been treated for depression for years, too, thought I'd better throw that in.) No major traumas in my life, my husband and I get along great, yaddayaddayadda. Suddenly everything that ever really hurt me in my life flashed through my brain over and over and I couldn't stop it. The pain was overwhelming, both physical and mental. The next morning I burned breakfast, the dog piddled on the floor, I tripped over a toy...and I lost it. Completely lost it. I grabbed my keys and took off, tires squealing. I took a long drive in the country, and every turn I came upon, I screamed at myself to NOT take it. I tried three times to drive into a tree.....anyway, obviously I worked it out. I didn't want to kill myself because someone had spurned me, or because of money troubles, or to get back at someone. I missed my dad, I was completely sick of being sick, and there was a a voice inside my head (MY voice) telling me that it was my day to die.

If I would have done it, would that have made me a coward, partial? I know I have an illness, and the vast majority of the time, the urge is not as severe as it was yesterday. I can tell myself it's the illness talking, not me. I've got tons of stuff to live for--the #1 thing is a little boy who is snoozing in a chair just a few feet away from me right now. I always talk myself out of it, or call friends and spend time with them, or spend one on one time with my little one (that's the best cure of all).

I don't even know why I wrote this.
I'm just a name on a screen to you people, nothing more.
I'm not one of the preferred posters here--
Please don't think badly of people who suffer from depression. They're just really, really sick.
Peggyb, You are a person to me. I hear you. Depression hurts. I have been there. I hope that you will call somebody to talk very soon. You need to talk and connect with somebody. Call a friend, your husband, a therapist, your doctor. If you don't know anybody to call, pm me. I have been in a very similar place to where you are. A serious bout of depression can follow a really bad headache like a migraine..but it's all related to the biochemistry in your body. Trust me. You do matter. I know you don't feel like that so you have to listen to us. Your life matters. And you matter to the community here. Believe that no matter how badly you hurt? DOCMK

[graystar]

Suicide makes me want to weep.
Weep with relief because I am alive.
Weep with fear because I've come so close.
Weep with desire that anyone suicidal gets help.

My stories of suicide problems in my life are long and wearying. I only share if some one asks.

But I do want to say this. For 25 years I sought help. I went to psychiatirsts, counselors, mental health clinics and when I got there I --felt normal-- so I didn't have the words to say what my problem was. A lot of the time I did not have insurance and so that didn't help either.

Then I dated a woman who was a nurse, a nurse who had worked in a psych hospital. She pegged me right away. She went with me to see the umpteenth pyschiactrist and as I wept in a corner terrified to speak she spoke to the doctor (who she knew). I was so timid and terrified of the crap others had told me before and believe it or not I was sent for pregnancy tests 8 different times because I didn't know how to tell the doctor what my mental problem was. As a lesiban not having sex with men it is a bit hard to pass a preganancy test. But believe it or not, thats the most help I received in 25 years. Aside from some substandard counseling, but it was free.

Finally I'm in this office with a woman who could communicate for me. I finally got the help I needed. You see I'm bi-polar. When ever before I'd see the doctor I'd be high enough to act happy and couldn't express my depression in adequate terms to be diagnosed correctly. When I was a teen I told my mother I was thinking of killing myself and she had a fit, I got in trouble with my dad yelling at me for causing my mother stress and being told that only crazy people think these things I was not crazy therefore I was not allowed to think these thoughts or speak of it again.

In the 25 years, I knew something was wrong with me, but I didn't mention it to the doctors because I learned not to talk about it from my dad who ruled with an iron hand. If he said you can't talk about that I didn't. Yes I feared my dad. And making my mother stressed was not the thing to do.

So all those years I couldn't say the words to the doctors I'm suicidal. I'm having crazy thoughts. Until my friend helped me that day in the doctor's office.

I got on meds. I've never been happier. I love my meds. I love being in balance. I love not having suicidal thoughts in my head. I love not crying myself to sleep. I love being alive and knowing I got help.

Don't give up. And if one doctor doesn't seem to help, go to another and take a friend with you.

Two years ago when I had ppp head to toe and was on morphine so bad cuz of the pain, the thought of wishing I could die crossed my mind but I was too ill to do anything about it. I am glad I lived. And I didn't want to die, I just wanted to be free of the pain and my skin falling off in chunks 8 to 12 inches wide.

P, PA and PPP can cause depression. Can cause us to wish we didn't have this pain, the stigma, the hurt. Depression can lead to suicide. But it doesn't always.

Somedays I still get depressed. But the voices in my head saying you'd be better off dead are gone. Good riddance.

Get help if you are depressed. Don't be afraid to say the words. Don't let my dad or your dad or an inner voice make you ashamed to ask for help.
I care about you.
I'm glad you are on this planet with me.
I don't know you, but I need you.
We all need each other for the blessings we share each day.

I saw the movie Play it Forward again the other day. Reminded me so clearly we don't know how one little thing we do will affect a million others.

Hugs to you all for helping me by writing what you have in this thread. For helping me say what I needed to say. For being alive with me.

[docmks]

Hi everybody,


First off, Graystar I want to thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful message. You covered a lot of ground and there's not much I can add except for a few things I want to reiterate.

I think what people don't realize...people who have not been through major depression...is that when you are that depressed, you are barely "present." Part of you is there, the other part can scarcely articulate what is happening, as Graystar points out so well. I have been there, too. And many others have as well. And a person can be having a total inner meltdown and not be able to explain what is happening on their insides. It can be a very difficult thing to do. And then sometimes anger comes out instead of the despair or sadness or grief. Or in addition to the sadness. I never really knew about how depression and anger can go along with one another until the night that I threw a chair through a picket fence.

It's so important that people who even think they may be experiencing depression see somebody who can help. Depression and bipolar disorder are understood so much more than they used to be. We now know that they involve complicated interactions among genes (sound like P and PA, anybody) and that they tend to be triggered by external factors--trauma, abuse, extreme stress, for example. It's not anything the person did.

And, in my personal experience, when a person is in major depression they are doing good if they can function enough to get out of bed and go to work. When I was in major depression, I used to dedicate each day to somebody I knew, so that I would remember that there is a reason to be here on this earth. It's like you saying, peggy, that spending time with your little one gives you reason to live. It's so important to remember keep that foremost in your mind when you get depressed.

It's not really about cowardice or revenge, though these things come up in suicide notes because a person is truly angry, but angry and despairing. It's called an aggitated depression. It's also about wanting to stop pain. There is a kind of mental (psychic) pain that is a hard , sharp and brutal as physical pain. It weighs on you. It can even make it hard to move, to breathe. It's like trying to walk through an ocean. And from the midst of that place comes a sweet voice that lulls you into feeling like you can get some relief. That can evolve into what psychologists sometimes call "the trance" where you are really in an altered state of consciousness as you slip into suicidal ideation further and further.

Always reach out. Even if you have to yell at somebody to do it. Always ask for help. Even when you don't know what you're experiencing inside. Trust the people who tell you "it will get better'" even when you don't believe it.

Take care all,
MK

[LoriASoCal]

Thank you MK and Graystar. I've decided to post something in response to my feelings about the orginal intent of this thread (which is still not entirely clear to me) and also about some of the remarks made about people who commit suicide.

I suppose I have a cause in that I want to help the medical community, press and lay person- to stop blaming the victim. I feel compelled whenever I see blame and shame attached to the victim as a way of separating the general population from the ill. Obviously people prefer to blame the victim because it separates them from any possibility that it could happen to them personally. I see it as a disease of ignorance that spreads rapidly without immediate treatment in the form of rebuttal by those with a more compassionate point of view.
***********************************
Quality of life (QoL) research shows that people with psoriasis have almost the same reduction in QoL as people with diseases such as cancer, diabetes or depression. Psoriasis can even lead some patients to consider suicide as the only alternative they have. {Dermatology news}

Research has taken into consideration the average rate of suicide ideation and found that it is significantly higher among those that suffer chronic illness: as much as 25% higher. This information does not propose that these people -also have other deep seated problems. On the contrary, people with psoriasis in and of itself can have feelings of suicide. If you have never had these feeling great! Good for you!

Quote
The facts about suicide are: that the largest population of fatal attempts is 50% higher among the elderly. Some specific reasons were identified among elderly suicides .The single most-cited cause was "physical health concerns", which were more frequent than the next two reasons ("depression" and "unknown") combined. Suicide and Attempted Suicide: Methods and Consequences (Hardcover)
by Geo stone

One of the key reasons the elderly list for suicide is ‘NOT BECOMING A BURDEN’. (I believe this is also one of the key reasons listed among the mentally ill)

Quote
To end health chauvinism, we must first recognize it for what it is: a form of bigotry, a category of hate. Giving up this prejudice will be difficult, because it means coming to terms with our own fragility, our own mortality. It means recognizing that disability and illness are an inevitable part of the human experience. We are all only one accident, one virus, one bacteria cell away from being ill or disabled ourselves. The true test of our morality is how we treat each other in the face of this unalterable reality.
COPYRIGHT 1994 American Humanist Association

Sadly I believe we have health chauvinism here on the boards and I’m sorry that it has to rear its ugly head in a forum that is obviously meant to support people and encourage them to talk about their emotions, even if those emotions include thoughts of suicide which may NOT BE NORMAL but they are certainly not uncommon among people with severe forms of this disease– This board should be about compassion for one another not obvious disdain for people who succumb to emotional or physical crisis through suicide by blaming the ultimate victim and resorting to name calling such as scum of the earth and coward. By luck or by grace this could be you or me.
I’ve lived through it- Though my feelings were mixed and there was some anger in the end- I always felt horrible not just for the family but for the ultimate victim that found life simply unbearable. Generally, these people are not the scum of the earth, just very tortured individuals for one reason or another.

It is true that any person considering suicide should seek professional help but must that end all discussion regarding the subject? Shouldn’t a person be able to come to a board titled” Emotional Support and Coping Techniques” [Provide and receive emotional support about shared experiences while discussing successful coping techniques and resources for living with psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis….] And get support regarding their feelings even if those feelings may seem over the top to some?

It was not that long ago when I was suffering from shingles, post herpetic neuralgia, psoriatic arthritis, loss of income from all of the above and anxiety so great about how, where and with whom I would live that I considered suicide as an alternative to becoming a burden to my two young daughters with families of their own. Did the pain drive me to that point? Quite simply-yes. I was fortunate enough to get the needed treatment- to gather support but I was on the brink and I can certainly see how it could have turned out badly through no fault of my own. Because that’s what that cacophony of pain [U]will do to a person. And if you think it can’t happen to you. Think again.

Yes, I'm passionate about this subject to the point of preachy but hopefully some of what I've said will sink into those brains that desperately need it.

[partial]

peggyb-You chose to live for your son, or for the myriad of other reasons that you turned the wheel when you did not have to.

The impacts on those who are left behind with the pain of dealing with suicide is what prompted me to bring this post back up. I really think that it is an issue that many people, especially those suffering from severe depression or anxiety, are not comfortable talking about.

Yea, you are just an anonymous forum name here, but do you think that it would not impact those who frequent the forums here if you decided to kill yourself? At least for me, it would. I would be impacted, I would go through every post you ever made to see if there was some indicator that I missed and thereby missed an opportunity to help.

This part of the forum rarely gets visited, you have several people who have responded, not to the anonymous screen name, but to you. Even if we are strangers who are nothing more than a screen name, we do care.

There are several people who frequent these forums who have my home and cell phone numbers who are welcome to call anytime things are too much or just need someone to blow off steam to over psoriasis or the other stuff that is happening in their lives.

Glad to see you post.

This is an issue seems to hang in the undertones, but rarely surfaces. Maybe if we keep updating it from time to time we can help out.

[grannyfranny]

We are going through a bad time. My 30 yr old nephew hung himself last week. No one saw this coming,,,,,,his parents, sister and girl friend all said he seemed perfectly fine.
He did not live here so the family that is here had not seen him for about 2 years. We all devastated and clinging to each other for support. I can't imagine what my brother, SIL and niece are going through. This is so sad and so bad that they can't even talk about it yet without falling apart. My SIL collasped and they had to call the doctor.

[LoriASoCal]

Peggy B.
You certainly wouldn't have been a coward had you turned your car into a tree. But you would be gone or possibly severly injured and it would have been a travesty for all concerned. (of course you do know that- but at that moment the rationale was hard to find?) You are here now and that's what counts.

Don't waste one minute feeling guilty or letting others make you feel bad for what could have happened. It can happen to anyone- it doesn't make you bad, or a coward or any other negative adjective.

Don't let this temporary lapse bring you down even more but use it as a reminder should the situation arise again that you made it through that tough period and found reason to live, love and laugh afterwards.

Cognitive treatment can help in this regard. It can teach you to pull out of desperate thinking before it leads to near misses with trees. From time to time, this life doesn't seem worth it for all it's pain-especially when you are experiencing more than your fair share of it. (extreme pain can create imbalances that defy logic) Now is a good time to see to it that you never have to react in that manner again. By implanting responses to thoses feelings in the form of mantras you can stop this fight or flight response that could lead to death or injury.

What if on that day you had been able to say to yourself- this is really bad I need medical help. I need to call my doctor and get relieved of this maddening pain. I need to go to ER if it's Sunday. I need to explain to my family that something isn't right and ask their help to resolve it. I need to exhaust my options BEFORE I drive headlong into a tree out of crazed desperation. I need to keep my head and take all the steps that have been planned out in advance when I was of sound mind and not in desperate pain before I do something final.

If between the time that you had this last incident and now- you have enjoyed the smell of something- laughed with someone- realized how important you are- hold that thought- commit it to memory so that in the midst of the Worst possible moment you can recall it with ease- then tell yourself to follow the steps of the plan and you will again have those good feelings.

Talk to your therapist AND doctor about what happened. There may very well be a good medication that can be kept on your shelf for when things turn ugly. If you don't get the help you need or if you leave their offices feeling worse than when you went in-find another doctor- one that will help you leave feeling positive and well armed.

Good luck to you!

[graystar]

Dear Granny,
My heart goes out to you and your extended family.
If I can do anything to help, let me know.
I care.
Graystar
832 244 5715

[graystar]

Hi docmks,
Your posting explains it so well.

Especially about 'barely being present'.
About not being able to say what is wrong.

Sometimes when I am depressed I feel like every single thing takes Hercularian effort. Even breathing or blinking my eyes.

In my experience people blame me for being depressed. Tell me to buck up. To get happy. To not feel that way. They say you can choose to not be depressed.

Hogwash. Depression is not a choice I made or make. It is like a cold it comes on you and you have the sniffles no matter what you do.

Cognative therapy has helped me a lot. To silence the circular negative thoughts. To think more rationally.

But what held my hand during my suicide hauntings was the thought of if I killed myself, my niece would be shattered. I hung on for her, through some big episodes of hell. My advice is find what you can hang on to, and don't let go.

My niece is now grown and is going to school to get her Masters in Counseling. She knows of my "stuff" and how she unknowingly saved my life with her love. She is already helping others and I am so proud of her.

[twinieten]

Oh my gosh, Graystar, you really said it right. While I have had bouts of depression from time to time, I have never fully experienced what some people experience. And it is hard to understand as an outsider. It's a sickness that can be controlled as easily as the flu. If mind over matter worked, well, we'd all be feeling pretty darned good all the time.

I also understand the feeling that it's a selfish act. Someone very close to me attempted suicide last year, and I was so angry at her for even contemplating something so selfish! This is from my perspective because she is important to me, to her children, to others in her life, even if she didn't think so. Losing her would have been devastating!

I know she felt like she just couldn't handle things anymore, and she felt like everyone around her would be better off without her. It took years to reach that point... an abusive husband, divorce, raising two small children on her own, dealing with her mental health, then physical health that landed in her in the hospital, followed by months of financial problems only made worse by her physical and mental symptoms.... How much can a person take before they break? But for her to kill herself would have had its impact on everyone around her, friends, family, her children.... at the time, she could see it only as, basically, doing us all a favor.

It was also very hard to watch her go through this as she was someone I admired for her strength and confidence! I am thankful she reached out instead of killing herself (which took a certain amount of strength, I'm sure)! She's still with us and getting better every day. My old pal is comming back, not without some bumps and bruises, but it sure is good to see her thriving again, getting ahead and.... well, our long talks and laughs.... it's good to have those again too.

No matter how big or small a part anyone plays in anyone else's life, they are all important. If anyone is contemplating suicide, I hope they will keep that in mind, even if they don't fully beleive it, and turn to others for help.

Granny, I'm so sorry to hear about your nephew! My thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

[p415years]

after reading through this thread i decided to way in with my thoughts, as a young man living wit p i have definitely fell into bad instances of depression, i actually cant see how someone with this ailment doesn't at some point let it get the better of them.
i have seen a discussion on previous posts about agreeing and/or disagreeing with acceptable reasons for suicide, it has been pointed out that some think it is acceptable when a lifetime of excrutiating pain is involved, my argument to this would be what is the difference between physical and mental pain? i recently went through a few months of very bad depression in which i found myself a grown man often start to cry at ne moment of the day, this was a shock to me and i can honestly say the thought of ending it did come into my mind, is this not natural? when i look back on events b4 the start of this period i can see alot of reasons for my depression and honestly they all track back to p. i have found on a personal level that dealing with p is a lonely business and although i have many friends and family around me i still feel and always will feel this lonelyness. in answer to the question "the chicken or the egg" i have to say for me p is the cause of the depression and not the other way around, i am fortunate enough to remember my early childhood without p and i remember how happy i was, since then its honestly been a struggle.

[LoriASoCal]

Hi P415,

I do know that it is common to think of suicide with severe P... and I do know that the more severe P is -the more it effects Quality of Life. It does seem to follow that people with low QoL would be more prone to ask themselves if living a low QoL is worth it- therefore in that respect I think it is natural. And yes, I believe- and apparently so does the medical community that P in and of itself can cause depression and suicidal ideation without any other underlying mental problems- this despite the beliefs of a number of people who have posted otherwise. I think I would tend to believe research rather than lay opinion.

My hope is that we can find ways together to raise our standard of living and find more quality. We are so close to new medicines that will put this disease in check for most of us- that I don't want to see anyone give up because they have P. Natural or not- suicide ideation is unhealthy and sometimes deadly.

You say that you are a young man, that's great! Because you will actually be able to benefit from these new medicines and enjoy your youth. I've lived with psoriasis most of my life and I'm near 50 now... but I'm darn happy that finally my P is clear from biologics.

My hope for you is that you position yourself stratigically so that when the opportunity comes for you to be free of P-(and it will) the other aspects of your life will be in place to enjoy your new found freedom. I hope that you can keep your focus to grow in other areas in preparation for that day- and to enjoy life as much as possible despite your P because it's days are numbered.

You've lived with P a long time- and I think that has something to do with a persons attitude towards it as well. It's insidious and truly messes with the mind in ways that are difficult to describe. But it doesn't have to beat us. And we are close to winning the game now- so please don't give up just before the finish line. You my friend, are going to have plenty of P free years ahead of you. Just be patient a bit longer.

[docmks]

I wanted to post and say that I am glad we are having this discussion. It's really a brave thing to admit to a community that you've had severe depression. And, yes, it often follows the development of P and PA as well as many (if not all) chronic illnesses. I think having depression is more often the case.

Also, Grannyfranny,
I am so sorry for your loss. I don't know how old a person your nephew was, but suicide rates are definately on the rise on some age groups. ANd it is alarming. And so many times people "don't" see it coming. The person will often withdraw so that the fact that they are profoundly depressed or disturbed in some other way just goes unnoticed. I know that you will be a big support to your SIL and her husband. The most important thing is to be there, listen and to reassure them about their son--he was in a lot of pain. A lot like the physical pain many of us have experienced except it is on the inside. And for that reason, this kind of pain stays hidden.

P415years: Please hang in there. I know that it is tough to live with P and/or PA. These are chronic illnesses and they do cause a great deal of hardship and pain. And for some of those prone to depression, the pain is extra hard. Trust people who say it will get better and hang on to that hope, even when you feel too bad to believe it. Right now, as I write this, I have a migraine and my fingers and wrist burn. I just write in the hopes that it will help somebody else and, for that matter, me, as well.



In my experience people blame me for being depressed. Tell me to buck up. To get happy. To not feel that way. They say you can choose to not be depressed.

Hogwash. Depression is not a choice I made or make. It is like a cold it comes on you and you have the sniffles no matter what you do.

Cognative therapy has helped me a lot. To silence the circular negative thoughts. To think more rationally.

But what held my hand during my suicide hauntings was the thought of if I killed myself, my niece would be shattered. I hung on for her, through some big episodes of hell. My advice is find what you can hang on to, and don't let go.

My niece is now grown and is going to school to get her Masters in Counseling. She knows of my "stuff" and how she unknowingly saved my life with her love. She is already helping others and I am so proud of her.

Graystar I wanted to quote you because I have a young neice, too. And now I have great-neices and nephews. I do keep them in my mind, not only because of giving me a reason to stick around, but also as a reason to be conscious of how I live my life. I say that it's important to model the behavior you want to see in others.

Cognitive-behavioral therapy has helped me as well. I know that even though I can't help being depressed, that it is biochemical, there are things I try to do when I know that I am more depressed, or in danger of getting that way. One thing is to reach out to others. And that is very hard; because when you are depressed you "tend to isolate." I know that I may not feel like reaching out when I am depressed, so if I even feel myself sliding down I have made it a habit to slow down, check in with a few friends, and really manage my stress level. These are the kinds of things that cog-behav therapy help you learn to do. Dr. Kay Jamison, who herself is bipolar, is one of the foremost authorities of bipolar disorder in the country. I heard her say that when she would have problems with depression she would watch movies. So, I started to get a supply of movies...and for times like these I prefer movies where the good guys win...you know positive stuff.

Take good care everyone,
MK

[graystar]

But I had to check here first.

docmks: Thanks! You cheer me up. Movies are great. I had a therapist tell me once that the reason I liked shoot 'em up movies like Die Hard or Westerns was the good guy was in the rescuerer mode and my psyche needed it. So I gave up feeling funny about them and watched them like crazy. It helped. Lately I'm into comedy shows. When I get down I find comedy on cable and watch it until I start to laugh. I also listen on my computer to Yahoo music, where you can set up your own station. You do not have to pay for it necessarily the free one comes with some commercials is all. But it has comedy sections. I got them all. So I get jokes, yes some are dumb all day. It helps.

p415years: I do not know if it is age, or a combination of age and these boards and life in general, or the two rounds of really bad ppp I have had but I have gotten to the point in my life where I just don't let peoples reactions to my p bother me. I guess I'm old and crusty in attitude as well as skin. LOL But I will say life has gotten a whole lot better for me as I've gotten older because I'm making decisions based on what I want to do not what the norm is or other peoples expectations. For example I joined a nudist club. I love it. The people there are so cool. Everyone is so kind to me. I usually start the conversation first with "you can obviously notice I have a skin problem. It's called psoriaisis. It's not contagious." Usually they pipe in at this point and say oh my uncle has that. And we go on to talk about politics or kids or the weather or the dance that night or something fun. My point is however, to go out do things you are interested in and go for things that make you happy. Being naked is such a relief for me, no clothes to rub my skin. And lots of sunshine. The place I go to is called Star Ranch. www.starranch.org Check it out.

[LoriASoCal]

Granny:
Here is something you might pass along to your family if and when you think it appropriate.
A Statement of Suicide Loss Rights
We have the right to a grief that is complex, chronic, and disabling. Death is a normal life crisis; suicide is the ultimate abnormal life crisis.
We have the right to be free of stigma. In our society suicide has a negative connotation. This afflicts us as it did those we lost.
We have the right to be angry about our loss and to be able to express it appropriately at the one we have lost or ourselves.
We have the right to feel responsible for things we did or did not do in relation to our loss. We may or may not come to feel differently.
We have the right to grieve in a manner and timeframe that works best for us. We don't have to "get over it."
We have the right to know "why." All who grieve yearn for the one lost. We also seek to understand what happened.
We have the right to regard our lost loved one as a victim. Suicide is the outcome of debilitation; it is not a choice or a decision.
We have the right to cooperation from police and the health care community if we seek information on how our loss came about.
We have the right to the truth about our loss. We should have access to information as early as possible, if we need it.
We have the right to know that we are not by definition candidates for psychotherapy or counseling, or that we must "get help."
We have the right to channel our experience to aid the suicidal or other suicide grievers, or to help others better understand either group.
We have the right to never be as we were before. Other ends to grief do not apply to us. We survive, but we do not "heal completely".

[p415years]

hello again everyone, i jus wanted to thank u all for replying and also clear one thing up, i would never in a million years do what had gone through my mind, i love my life, when i said "is this not normal" i intended it to mean for everyone not jus people with p.
Basically i was discussing the cause of suicide and asking questions based on my opinion to certain situations ie someone goin through a bad depression, in my opinionmost people will definitely think of ending it if only for a sec, to qoute someone i don't remember "your not human if you have never thought of ending ur life", i believe 99% of people have thought about it, and yes by this i even mean those couple of second daydreams where u imagine it but know that its just ur imagination and nothing real.
I do have to say i live everyday hoping for a miracle but who doesn't? this may put a downer on me sometimes and my worst few months were bad indeed but id say they were no where near as bad as what some people go through, therefore i was usin my frame of mind at that time to imagine how easily it could happen.
I know with my luck it would be the day after i did something that they'd find a cure or very good treatment :), so i plan to be here for that day.
i have everything goin for me at the mo so thanks again for all ur replies and dont worry i aint goin anywhere..

[TJM718]

Depression comes hand in hand with psoriasis for me. It's a hard package to deal with and for me interferes with developing intimate relationships so it's hard. I agree with PJ. Anyone having suicidal thoughts or ideations should seek the help of a professional counselor or therapist. I've been there and it helps. I discovered that for me it was about holding in all of my pain and not knowing how to give proper voice to it. I also found being active on this board and getting involved with local P people has helped tremendously in giving me a more positive and upbeat attitude. Hope this helps.

[emilou]

This is a good subject, PJ Leary. I have so many thoughts, I'm not sure where to start. I've lost 3 loved ones to suicide. Sometimes I'm angry that they could do it and I have to stay here. After experiencing what it does to the family and friends first hand, I know I could never do it to the ones I love. But, that doesn't stop me from wishing I'd done it first. OK, OK, don't worry! I am in treatment and on meds. This is the only time in my life, I've had a Dr. (?) that I felt really good about. I've been helped so much. And, you're right. P isn't the only reason I've ever thought of suicide. To be that sick takes things piling up on you till you are overwhelmed. And it is a myth that people who talk about it don't do it. So Please, anyone reading this who has heard of anyone talking about doing suicide, take them serious and try any encouragement you can. Talk to them, try to make them talk. But, remember: It's not your fault if you can't stop them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I should come back later. Enough for me now.
lahdove


dear lahdove,
It is the fifth year anniversary of my fiance's suicide.
Thanks for sharing.
~emilou~

[emilou]

Depression comes hand in hand with psoriasis for me. It's a hard package to deal with and for me interferes with developing intimate relationships so it's hard. I agree with PJ. Anyone having suicidal thoughts or ideations should seek the help of a professional counselor or therapist. I've been there and it helps. I discovered that for me it was about holding in all of my pain and not knowing how to give proper voice to it. I also found being active on this board and getting involved with local P people has helped tremendously in giving me a more positive and upbeat attitude. Hope this helps.


Sometimes it is hard but not IMPOSSIBLE!
Just knowing we aren't ALONE helps.
Having good positive support helps me immensely.
Family and friends and ATTITUDE (good one) at least somewhat positive ;) is definitely a PLUS.
Educating myself and others and advocating also can make a big difference.
I am learning to see myself as someone who has P and not seeing myself as P.
P is and will ALWAYS be a part of me but not the WHOLE.
For awhile I was letting it consume ME.
Up front I tell ppl I have it and what it is and then the rest is up to them...take me or leave me.
You can't catch it lol lmao...and if I see someone recoiling or revulsed by it they aren't for me...no offence to them...no judgement but they are definitely not someone I would want in my life anyways.
Sometimes ppl pity us and that sometimes bothers me but if they are empathetic then they have won my heart over.
It can be sore itchy and sometimes I wish it would just go away.
Recently I met someone and am not too sure if they really get it but oh well time will tell.
Without even realizing it they have made comments that have made me wonder and it's like they are being a martyr by condescending to be with me lol lmao wtf? (sorry)
;)
I have it on different areas and it can seem to come and go and flare up when you least expect it. It also is in combination with eczema.
Not to mention I have asthma and arthritis...hey you go girl! ;)
All in all having a sense of ha ha helps but not always...I do get down and last year I had a rough time of it but accepting it and trying pretty hard to do NOT WORRY is my biggest challenge.
My main concern is working.
I have it on the SOLES of my feet and now it seems to be on both of them and in different areas on the top and sides...very painful and can be very itchy at times.
I think we all just get tired of having to try and figure out what the h*ll to do.
Money or lack of it can make it difficult. Getting proper care and affording medications can be challenging.
It is also hard for others to understand how it affects the way WE see ourselves not the WAY others might actually see us.
It can wreak havoc with your self-esteem and self-worth.
That in and of itself can make anyone depressed and feel they are NOT WORTHY.
Hooey!
Sorry this is so long.

[emilou]

Granny:
Here is something you might pass along to your family if and when you think it appropriate.
A Statement of Suicide Loss Rights
We have the right to a grief that is complex, chronic, and disabling. Death is a normal life crisis; suicide is the ultimate abnormal life crisis.
We have the right to be free of stigma. In our society suicide has a negative connotation. This afflicts us as it did those we lost.
We have the right to be angry about our loss and to be able to express it appropriately at the one we have lost or ourselves.
We have the right to feel responsible for things we did or did not do in relation to our loss. We may or may not come to feel differently.
We have the right to grieve in a manner and timeframe that works best for us. We don't have to "get over it."
We have the right to know "why." All who grieve yearn for the one lost. We also seek to understand what happened.
We have the right to regard our lost loved one as a victim. Suicide is the outcome of debilitation; it is not a choice or a decision.
We have the right to cooperation from police and the health care community if we seek information on how our loss came about.
We have the right to the truth about our loss. We should have access to information as early as possible, if we need it.
We have the right to know that we are not by definition candidates for psychotherapy or counseling, or that we must "get help."
We have the right to channel our experience to aid the suicidal or other suicide grievers, or to help others better understand either group.
We have the right to never be as we were before. Other ends to grief do not apply to us. We survive, but we do not "heal completely".



I lost a fiance' five years ago September 12.
For me personally September 11 was bittersweet...it was the LAST time I saw him and he said "He LOVED Me".
I will never be the Same.
I am a SURVIVOUR!
Again, thanks!

[grannyfranny]

Lori and all,,,thank you all so much. Time will help but the first time our brother and his family come here will be difficult. Maybe they will come at Christmas and be with us. I know the first times for holidays and birthdays are hard. We also lost DH's mom to suicide back in the 70's. It helps to talk about these things with family and I am thankful that we have a huge one.

[docmks]

Granny and all,

I just posted my list of links in the Mental Health Resources thread, but one group I wanted to mention here is the group Survivors of Suicide.
http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/.

Many local communities have suicide prevention hotlines, but if you need to talk (about a friend, family member or yourself) and are unsure where to call try 1-800-273-TALK.

MK

[partial]

I think that this is probably the most important, and least discussed of issues on these forums. I am glad that it is being discussed and hope that we can keep it in the forefront and help.

While my opinion based on my life experiences may differ from others posting here, every post counts. If one person or family is helped by the discussion, then we have accomplished something.

While I have not experienced the death of a family member or friend by suicide first hand, I have had my share of natural deaths in my family. Both my mother and father have died in the last 10 years. The emotional aspects of dealing with those incidents have been very difficult for me.

Talking with families of suicide's (way too many) in the past has left me a bit opinionated on this issue. I guy I worked with had his twin brother commit suicide. My stupid comment to him at the funeral was, "I can image the pain that you are feeling". His response, "I hope not and that you never have to".

Any chronic illness or disease that causes chronic pain has been shown through studies to create anxieties and depression that otherwise would not be there. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt and the hat.

I hope that we come together and help.

[Mybadgenes]

I am going to have to read all of this thread more carefully.

Right now I know of a young (to me) lady that is crying out for help. She is also bi-polar and uses meth to make her feel what she calls normal. She just overdosed by taking the only thing she could get her hands on ....100 Tylenol .... very matter of factedly ... planned ... as she could not get help and get into a facility for addiction RIGHT THEN !! Calmly called 911, got her stomach pumped and is being cared for for right now. But now what ??

Hopeless ... all are turning away. And she is so talented in her work. So many have tried and tried to help her and have. She is beautiful.

Juanita

[peggyb]

To docmks, partial, grannyfranny, emilou, TJM718, p415years, LoriASoCal, graystar, drea, and MyBadGenes:

Thank you for continuing this discussion, and my heart goes out to all of you who have thought about suicide as an option for yourself, witnessed it, know people who are suffering, and/or have lost loved ones to it. (I've just kind of skimmed over what's been written here on page three, and intend to absorb more of it when I can.) Thank you for sharing some incredibly painful things here. This may sound terrible, but I'll bet you'll understand: reading these things has actually made me feel a little better, because it took away some of the isolation that I felt. I wouldn't wish what has happened to some of you on my worst enemy, but when I got the affirmation from all your stories that I am not alone in feeling so despondent, it made me feel relieved. I'm betting you all get what I'm saying here. ;)

I had to get away from the topic for a few days...but I just want to tell everyone that I am feeling sooooooooo much better right now. In fact, the very next day, WHEN THE HEADACHE WENT AWAY COMPLETELY, all those urges and thoughts I'd had on Sunday were gone, and I really can't understand what pushed me over the edge. This almost always happens when I have a bad episode. That's why I keep telling myself it's an illness talking to me, and eventually the illness will shut up and go away (for awhile). I do not believe it is as easy to control as the flu, as another poster stated earlier, because if it was, this still wouldn't be happening to me. I've been on the same medications for a long time now--maybe it's time to rotate to something new, I don't know. The last time I had a prolonged period of suicidal feelings, I was put on Abilify, and I simply couldn't tolerate it...sleeping 12-14 hours a day and being in a thick fog when I was (supposedly) "awake".

I'd like to write more, but a 4-year-old wants his waffles. :)
Time to be happy now for awhile!

[beautifulxmistake]

I have dealt with many suicides in my professional career and can say that, in my opinion, it is the most cowardly act that a human being can perform (not accounting for the very rare case that a person has a terminal illness that has completely ruined their quality of life and has discussed it with their family and done it with their knowledge and consent-about one in a million in my estimation).

So you're saying that people who rape and murder are less cowardly than those who attempt / commit suicide?

How is suicide cowardly? I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, really, I just want to know why you think that.

Could a cowardly person place a loaded gun in their mouth and pull the trigger? Or tie a rope around their neck and step off a chair? Or hold themselves under water until they take their last breath? Or drive head on into oncoming traffic? No. They couldn't.

In my opinion, suicide is not the act of an insane person, but that of an overly sane person. It is the ultimate act of sanity.

[partial]

So you're saying that people who rape and murder are less cowardly than those who attempt / commit suicide?

How is suicide cowardly? I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, really, I just want to know why you think that.

Could a cowardly person place a loaded gun in their mouth and pull the trigger? Or tie a rope around their neck and step off a chair? Or hold themselves under water until they take their last breath? Or drive head on into oncoming traffic? No. They couldn't.

In my opinion, suicide is not the act of an insane person, but that of an overly sane person. It is the ultimate act of sanity.

I don't see rapists and murderer's as cowards, but as predators.

I see suicide as cowardice (and will qualify that as I have previously as, in most instances) as it is generally an act that is done to only serve ones self interest and with no regaurd for those who deal with the aftermath.

As far as someone performing the act, no matter what the method, the outcome and aftermath is still the same.

Maybe cowardly is the wrong word. Perhaps it would be better described as a self-serving act done without thought towards others.

Overly sane? Perhaps...Or is it more being overly introspective? I do have to disagree that it is the "ultimate act of sanity".

I appreciate the post, we all have different views on things and this is worthy of discussion.

[1WeekAtATime]

Yes, you make a good point. It's easy to feel self-destructive in many ways with P, and this can stem from self-image and even the act of picking and what it does to the psyche.

On the other hand, it's up to the person's own sensitivity, support or lack of support, and place in life that can throw it off kilter. I've been there. I'm one of the lucky few who has many major life-altering health conditions, and P/PA is just one. I hate treatments and feel trapped by them.

Just remember that you do really have a life out there to live, no matter what. It may seem like P/PA is keeping you from doing things right or the best way, so why do anything at all, but stop and find something small that makes you a part of the better side of life when you feel this way. Do not be hard on yourself.

I'm a filmmaker, and I truly strive to make films that people can escape to. Go see a flick. Even if it's just one step, it will get you away from your hard situation and hard thinking.

[AnnieB]

I can't agree that it is a "sane" act. The reason I say that is that people often feel most suicidal at times in their life when they have lost perspective. They are not at THEIR most sane. Maybe they are extremely depressed because something traumatic happened recently. Maybe they were on a medication and just went off it and their brain chemistry is wacked. Even if the feelings have built up over time, because they are depressed they can't imagine life getting better and feeling good again. They are overwhelmed in the moment. But the truth is that if they can just reach out to someone and not end their life, it is possible that they will find themselves in a different and better place in the future. I only say this because I and many people I know have had times of deep depression in the past and when they look back they can see that their thinking was pretty distorted. That DOESN'T mean that you might not be clear-headed about what is causing the pain (family, relationships, health problems, etc.)

[partial]

I look at it this way.

We are all born with a suitcase. Throughout our lives we fill that suitcase with the tough emotional issues/traumitic events/etc. When it is full, we are no longer able to deal with new stressors as well as we could if the suitcase still had some room in it for problems.

Chronic illness, major stressors, anxieties, chronic pain, etc fill that suitcase quickly.

Some have nothing more than a carry on, some have huge trunks with endless space. Depends on the person.

Whatever the case, if we dont make room in our "baggage" for new stressors, they create a bigger emotional impact, as there is no where left to store them. P or PA can quickly fill a suitcase, since its something that is dealt with daily.

It is finding an way to make room in the bag a daily task that is the toughest thing to do.

[LoriASoCal]

I look at it this way.

We are all born with a suitcase. Throughout our lives we fill that suitcase with the tough emotional issues/traumitic events/etc. When it is full, we are no longer able to deal with new stressors as well as we could if the suitcase still had some room in it for problems.

Chronic illness, major stressors, anxieties, chronic pain, etc fill that suitcase quickly.

Some have nothing more than a carry on, some have huge trunks with endless space. Depends on the person.

Whatever the case, if we dont make room in our "baggage" for new stressors, they create a bigger emotional impact, as there is no where left to store them. P or PA can quickly fill a suitcase, since its something that is dealt with daily.

It is finding an way to make room in the bag a daily task that is the toughest thing to do.
That's a good way of looking at it.

[beautifulxmistake]

I don't see rapists and murderer's as cowards, but as predators.

I see suicide as cowardice (and will qualify that as I have previously as, in most instances) as it is generally an act that is done to only serve ones self interest and with no regaurd for those who deal with the aftermath.

As far as someone performing the act, no matter what the method, the outcome and aftermath is still the same.

Maybe cowardly is the wrong word. Perhaps it would be better described as a self-serving act done without thought towards others.

Overly sane? Perhaps...Or is it more being overly introspective? I do have to disagree that it is the "ultimate act of sanity".

I appreciate the post, we all have different views on things and this is worthy of discussion.

I can't speak for anyone who's commited or attempted suicide, as everyone's thoughts and beliefs are so different, I know this, but from my own personal experience....

The person who commits suicide is in so much pain, and feels that they themselves are casuing everyone around them that same pain.

By getting rid of the pain, that pain can no longer exsist, right? To the person commiting suicide, they are doing everyone around them a favor.

Yes, there is the pain that the family goes through after the person has commited suicide. But that initial pain is gone.

I'm not saying that suicide should be accepted as a way of dealing with ones problems, but it should be respected.

And I can see why you would disagree with suicide being an ultimate act of sanity. I think a lot of people would disagree.

What I mean, is when a person is depressed, and they think about killing themselves, but don't because they are too depressed, they don't have the strength to go through with it. When they start to feel better and come out of that depression, they have the strength to go through with their plan of suicide.

^I don't know if that makes much sense, I'm sorry if it doesn't =]].

[Ihurt]

Im intimately familiar with this topic. I was purposely holding back on this all day...hesitent to speak but I feelI have to.

I grew up with a manic depessive mother. She has tried to committ suicide twice in my lifetime, both times we were able to save her. She is medicated, but one only knows if she will do it again, and we live with it...IT'S CALLED emotional blackmail.

I watch her....it's not easy. Bi Polar people suffer such chemical imbalance sometimes worse than what we do. Mania is really bad for them, they "get high" off their own chemicals and they are always dependent upon the meds to sustain them. Just this last week when she stayed with me, I caught her talking to things and people that weren't there. She was fighting, saying things like "leave me alone, I don't want to talk about it". It kills me that she's never had an oppotunity to live without the "racing thoughts, obsessive thnking, poor social behavior and relationships and eveything else that goes along with bi polar disease. I hurt for her and what she's lost.

Personally I have suffered suicidal ideology years ago when situations overwhelmed me, I was sick with PA and I just didn't think I could cope anymore. To me, the it felt that if I was dead I wouldn't feel the pain anymore. The only thing that sustained me was my children. That's when I learned this:

SUICIDE IS A PERMANENT SOLUTION TO A TEMPORARY PROBLEM.

I always try to remember this. I also got help for it, and learned all I could about "dysthymia" (low level chronic depression). My depressions are centered on trying to cope, wanting to work-earn a living, and being held back from it., being sick.

I learned that there's no shame or blame in depression and that when and if I get that low ever again-I get scared-I ASK FOR HELP.

[peggyb]

beautiful mistake, you couldn't be more right about the thought process of a person with suicidal tendencies. That is exactly what goes through my head when it's filled with horrible thoughts. "It would be so much easier on everyone if I were gone...no more of my black moods for them to have to deal with...they won't have to look at me getting more crippled up and uglier each passing year...(and here's my favorite) they'll have so much more money to do what they want with instead of spending it on treatments that don't work..." Those are a few of the things I think about. I figure if they could just see that it will make their life better in the long run...they'd get over it faster and move on.

Of course I know all of that is rubbish. It's just the kind of stuff that goes through your head.

Ihurt, I feel deeply for you, having to care for your mother and living a lifetime with all those problems. I fear that my son will have to watch me when I get older, and I don't want that for him. He's an only child, I don't want him to have to deal with me all by himself...well, him AND my husband. Ihurt, I'm glad you don't feel there is any shame in asking for help, and that you can. Myself, I have to do it in secret. If my family ever found out how hard it is for me, they would never understand, and they'd never treat me the same again. I have a niece who has terrible depression and drug addiction problems, and people don't talk to her much or reach out to her, and they talk about her something awful when she's not around. My friends know I've had depression for years, but I can't just call them and talk when I'm feeling bad. I used to rely on talking to my friends when I was very low...and it ended up driving them away. I can name at least three people who's shoulders I used to cry on who want nothing to do with me today. I was seeing a therapist for a short time recently...but she only wanted to talk about the things SHE wanted to talk about. If I tried to tell her things that I needed to talk about, she'd just steer the conversation back to whatever topic she wanted to talk about that day...usually nutrition and getting into a group therapy for people with chronic illnesses. When I divorced my first husband, I had a wonderful therapist who really GOT what I was all about and helped me get out of a bad situation in a very timely manner. I've tried to find him again but evidently he's moved out of the area.

[Ihurt]

It is not easy. I love her although because of my childhood many people wonder how I could. Your son will lve you too, no matter what. Living with my mother's illness made me a more responsible, compassionate and gifted person. Children are resilient, very resilient. He will be a better person because of it.

I was fortunate enough to go to Al-Anon for many years. My mother drank-self medicating herself for years while I raised my siblings. I GOT it that it's a disease, later I committed her to an institution for 28 days, and I GOT IT again that she could not help herself-no matter how hard she tried.

God love her though...even when she thinks of checking out...she's always making sure her kids are taken care of..even calling my father who she's hated and been divorced from for almost 35 years. Her "conspiracy' theories always center around someone hurting her kids..she's fiercly protective, but very paranoid.

I enjoy spending time around her when she's "Mom"...but her mood cycle so much it's few and far in between. That other person who comes out is needy, manipulative, and greedy, and not likeable at all, but I know it's the disease.

I learned from her...I know when Im at my lowest but it took me a long time to learn how to listen to myself. My days start to become very gray, my interest in anything I once enjoyed dwindles to nil and Im angry at everyone. I've identified that anxiety turns into depression, and depression turns into anxiety and all of it is based in fear and anger. Depression is anger turned inwards. I was very fortunate to have a therapist I truly love and was in therapy for 12 years. Now he calls me his "Maintenence" patient lol. Although I moved out of state, he's just a phone call away and we can have phone sessions. He kows me better than I know myself and I have learned alot from him. Having him saved my life way back when i came the closest to the end. He taught me coping mechanisms....many that I still use. We both also realized that because I had this disease I still needed meds or the clinical depression would set in no matter what amount of therapy I had. He helped me get rid of the stigma's....mostly the ones like in your family. My father said therapy and Al-Anon were "a cult" and they twisted up my mind. he and I haven't spoken in almost 15 years December. Despite my many years of stress, this disease and the like it felt good not be told Im stupid, Im weak, grow up, etc. He was extremely critical and all I ever wanted was my father's love so this impacted me greatly. I remember when I first went to therapy and the therapist asked me what she could do for me...I told her she had to help me to be able to tell my father to go BLANK himself. She smiled and said we would work on it, but that she didn't suggest I do it today. To this day my father is extremely physically abusive to my half siblings. He wasn't all bad though, and there are times that I do miss him greatly, but for my own mental health I had to completely disconnect., and in his heart he's diswoned me. I was asked to be a guest on Sally Jesse Raphel in 93 to talk about the abuse I suffered at his hands. After I did he threatened me, then disowned me. I have made attempts to go back and discuss it with him, but Im dead to him. HIS WAY OF PUNISHING ME FOR AIRING OUT THE FAMILY LAUNDRY. Again, as I said, it's better for me in the long run., and my children.

My only goal in likfe was to prevent my children from EVER living half the life I did, and so far I haven't done a bad job of it. For this I am quite proud of myself.

There are silver linings but when we are depressed we can't see them. I hope for your sake you do find someone you can tell how you REALLY FEEL. Keeping it bottled up kills me...Im the kind of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, I never knew any other way. Journaling is also a good way of getting it out. There really is magic to putting the pen to paper. Asking for help is not a crime, doesn't make you weak, in fact it takes a STRONG person to do it. One of the things I think about is this: Im the one that's either going to reap the benefits or sow the sorrows....no one else is living my life.

I wish you peace and serenity....because it truly is priceless although fleeting.

[Chiana]

I've thought of suicide before but the psoriasis wasn't the cause. It was basically a reaction after losing a second baby in two years, at 24 weeks. The doctors called it "post partum depression". I called it H-E double hockey sticks. Either way I knew I needed help and got it when I needed it. The psoriasis for me is just the icing on the cake sometimes.
I'm not sure how many times I've rubbed my scalp raw.

[Rose Red]

When I have a bad outbreak I consider it. I'm not crazy, although I do have other difficulties.

There are things in my life that keep me here, and I can't bear the thought of disappointing those who depend on me. So I put on my brave face and do what I have to.

Thinking about it doesn't make me crazy. I've planned for it for years.

[nailgal72]

WELL I CAN CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THESE THOUGHTS... I HAVE PA AND THINK OF IT OFTEN SOMETIMES IT SEEMS LIKE THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE THE PAIN... YOU CAN ONLY TAKE SO MANY MEDS. BUT IT HELPS TO REMEMBER THAT I WILL GET BETTER AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I TELL MYSELF!!! *L*

[nailgal72]

When I have a bad outbreak I consider it. I'm not crazy, although I do have other difficulties.

There are things in my life that keep me here, and I can't bear the thought of disappointing those who depend on me. So I put on my brave face and do what I have to.

Thinking about it doesn't make me crazy. I've planned for it for years.
I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!!!!!!!!

[jorel-1]

Very interesting thread. Complicated topic to discuss, but interesting nonetheless.

Here's a few opinions/some input of my own regarding deep depression/suicidal thoughts:

I should add up front that I court no thoughts that this is going to resolve anyone's tendency to get into a state of deep depression or have suicidal thoughts. It's merely input of my own to add to the thread since I feel that this is of great importance.

There was a period of time back in the mid 1970s that I did experience a lengthy stretch of deep depression and some planning of a quick exit from this life did trickle in.

I remember sitting in a chair of my sparse apartment one day with my head hanging low when an unexpected thought did run across my mind. It was this: - I was actually finding some pleasure in my own state of depression. I was wallowing in my own despair. It was like floating in a tub of warm water and I was feeling somewhat comforted by it in a strange kind of way. It finally struck me that I was actually getting enjoyment from these crippling thoughts. Huh ?

It kind of snapped me out of it and I got up and went out for a drive.

That's it. That's the end of the story.

I view depression like a hungry child that lives inside of me. It's a child that has the ability to feed off of itself. And as it feeds off itself, that wicked child grows bigger and therefore that child gets heavier and heavier to carry around. The child can get so big and heavy that I end up lying flat on my back in bed unable to move. At that point it will become pretty apparent that the child and I will have to part company. The question is who will remain in this life and who will go. Hopefully, the child will decide to pack it's bags and leave before I do.

The trick for me is to never let the child develop a hunger in the first place.

Depression is a complicated thing and can lead to unfortunate circumstances when it's in an advanced stage. I know nothing about helping those who suffer from it. I have never received any training in psychiatry. I've never even read any books about treatment for it.

I do know that...

It seems to be easier being analytical and rational about depression, but only when one is NOT depressed. In other words, when one IS experiencing depression/suicidal thoughts, rational thought seems to fly out the window.

Please take this post of mine with a grain of salt. In no way did I intend to give advice. Although, if you came away with a little something useful, well then, all I can say is I'm glad I helped, even if it was only in some tiny way.

Finally -
As we go through this life, those who are on the upper rungs of the ladder have an obligation to reach down and raise up their brothers and sisters who have slipped down to a lower rung.

[fujor]

i think we've all had our darker moments and P probably just adds to the problem rather than being the cause. although i cannot speak for those who have more severe P than myself.

the other month at work someone had just developed P in the last few weeks and he flipped out, kept saying his girlriend would leave him because of it, that he couldn't bear it on him. anyway we found him later walking towards the train track.

we've had a few suicides at work thanks to the adjacent trainline, but this guy literally changed over night. I dont think his P was the only reason he came to it but it was the straw that broke his back.